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主题:JBL 1500AL 喇叭谁能做出来?

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JBL 1500AL 喇叭谁能做出来?  发帖心情 Post By:2008-6-3 15:26:05 [显示全部帖子]

 

这是一款低失真,高效率的喇叭。音圈在最大冲程时也在磁隙里,而不是悬在磁隙上。

最大输出声压118db,在110db时失真为0.3%.

JBL一些中低端产品在美聋,国光,常禾加工。但这款喇叭有人能做出来吗?


1500AL 基于铝镍钴 5DG 磁体构建。音圈间隙下方的一个 2 英寸 (50mm) 铝短路环,加上组成内部间隙环系统的十五个 0.03 英寸 (0.8mm) 铜环和十六个 0.06 英寸 (1.6mm) 钢环,可以有效稳定局部和全局磁场,这是一种首创的工程设计。

?  对称几何磁场设计? (SFG) 电路专为 1500AL 设计,可以建立垂直对称并在整个 0.10 英寸 (2.54mm) 宽、1.6 英寸 (40.64mm) 长的间隙中产生 0.52 特斯拉的持续磁通量密度。

?  振膜是一个直径 15 英寸 (380mm) 的纤维纸浆锥盆。锥盆自然干燥以增加纤维强度,其表面具有波状肋条以增加硬度。

?  Aquaplas? 用于锥盆的外围后部,有助于消除高功率级别的失真。而新开发的重量轻、损耗低的 EPDM 泡沫乳胶边缘可以确保长期耐用。曲线形状由计算机建模,以获得最大的移动精度。

?  Nomex? 对称的双减振结构可以消除非对称、非线性、减少运动的谐波失真。

?  3.94 英寸 (100mm) 直径、高密度的音圈由绕至 0.8 英寸 (20.32mm) 宽的 0.06 英寸 x 0.01 英寸 (1.524mm x 0.15mm) 扁平铝线制作而成。与新开发的 SFG 磁路一起使用,它获得的不失真线性可以达到 1 英寸 (25.4mm) 的最大锥盆偏移峰峰值。

?  JBL 独特的通风间隔冷却系统采用三个从磁极流动到磁盖的风洞,从而有效散发由音圈产生的热量,同时控制该元件的背压。

以下是SFG电路和整只喇叭结构图


图片点击可在新窗口打开查看此主题相关图片如下:1500al_draw.gif
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图片点击可在新窗口打开查看此主题相关图片如下:sfg.jpg
图片点击可在新窗口打开查看

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  发帖心情 Post By:2008-6-4 11:13:17 [显示全部帖子]

 

忘了告诉价格,这知喇叭在日本有卖过,零售价在USD1500/只左右(RMB一万多)。1500AL是JBL 2003左右推出的产品。用在K2 S9800音箱上。这只箱上用的高音045Be价格更贵,是1500AL的两倍多。


不知在理论上,有没有人能做出来?


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  发帖心情 Post By:2008-7-8 11:18:07 [显示全部帖子]

看来没人接招.不知是不能还是不屑?


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  发帖心情 Post By:2009-3-30 11:27:21 [显示全部帖子]

以下是引用阿龙-翟在2009-02-10 23:37:00的发言:

如果音色特性做到的话,没有多少难度
如果品牌效应达到的话,同志尚需努力
其他JBL的软实力暂不考虑

可能你还没明白这款喇叭的精华,一是其失真很小且是在大功率状态下的低失真,二是解决了铝钴镍磁铁的消磁问题。他的结够复杂就是为了达到低失真。

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  发帖心情 Post By:2009-3-31 13:48:47 [显示全部帖子]

以下是引用阿龙-翟在2009-03-30 12:57:11的发言:

如果你知道那喇叭是在哪里设计,在哪里开模,是谁在主导,在哪家做的,。。。(偶然的巧合:涉及到如人,机,料,法,环的水平高度和精度我很清楚)
你就不会这样说了,呵呵

备注:我不会做JBL的COPY,和JBL也没有关系

难道是飞达代工的? 我知道它们给HARMAN代工一些专业箱。这可真好。HARMAN又教会了一些人。这真出乎我的意料,我原以高档的产品HARMAN都是在自己美国和丹麦的工厂做的呢。 不过有点疑问,HARMAN的人那么笨,不留一手?特别是能让国内的工厂轻易地COPY出来(不是指COPY它的外观)。这是一款2006年的产品,也就说是在SYDNEY HARMAN把公司卖给高盛之前的事呀。好像不符合HARMAN一贯的作风。

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  发帖心情 Post By:2009-4-1 9:46:59 [显示全部帖子]

以下是引用阿龙-翟在2009-03-31 17:28:08的发言:

和原装喇叭各用品材料完全相同材料厂甚至于包装铭牌都完全一样,那还是COPY吗???

前边已提到,那是JBL60周年纪念版旗舰箱的单元,如果要做那喇叭(等同于侵权)就等着洗干净了去住公家旅馆,而且附加免费剃头服务,哈哈
因为产权的保护而不能做,不能代表其他人做不了,意思已经很明白:喇叭都是人做的

只能和你说我在宁波也比较熟,而03年底我就离开广东了。。。
事情没有那么简单,也没有那么复杂,了解了人,神话就只是神话了
[此贴子已经被作者于2009-03-31 17:51:31编辑过]

其实这款1500AL喇叭,外观没有特色,音色怎么样,我也不知道。我只是惊讶它的那个失真,在110 dB是只有0.03%。太有点不可思议了。
你所说的音色,外观,材料一样,我都不在乎。也许我和你强调的重点不一样。我见过太多防人家的喇叭,比如Seas,scan,BC等等,大多数外观一样,但都与人家原装的在性能音色方面差别较大。唯有USHER防的SCAN的喇叭好一点,几乎可以以假乱真。但那是因为,USHER请了一个在SCAN做了十几年的工程师的结果呀。
如果国内能做出1500AL一样性能的喇叭(我强调不是指外观,外观并不重要),那真令人高兴。

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  发帖心情 Post By:2009-4-1 10:19:15 [显示全部帖子]

 
以下是一篇解绍1500AL喇叭开发过程的文章,以及这款喇叭需要达到的一重要参数是失真。它是从1999年开始立项开发的,大约在2003年完成。而且这款喇叭并不是凭空开发的,它是在1400ND基础上搞的。而1400ND是1989开发的喇叭用在K2-9500上。
 
请大家重点关注,他们解释的失真的原因以及他们应对的方法。  当然,希望声学楼里的高手,对这些做一个评价。最好能提出你的解决问题的方法,供大家学习。

Development of the 1500AL traces back to the first K2 low frequency driver, the 1400Nd. That driver was originally developed in 1989 for the K2-S9500 by Doug Button, currently Vice President of Research and Development at JBL Professional. The intent was to go “all out” in the design of a linear, low distortion, high output driver. From Doug’s perspective, there was only one way to achieve the lowest possible distortion – an underhung design. Underhung designs use a voice coil that is considerably shorter than the magnetic gap in which it is suspended. Most dynamic loudspeakers use a voice coil that extends well above and below the magnetic gap to make the most use of the magnetic energy. However, there is a price in increased distortion. It has to do with the fact that the coil is not acted upon symmetrically by the permanent field once it is displaced from the rest position.  Conversely, in an underhung design, the full coil is always immersed in a constant strength magnetic field since it never leaves the gap.

Underhung designs are not common in dynamic loudspeakers due to their cost. The fact that the coil height is less than the gap height means that there are always portions of the permanent field that are not in contact with the coil. This is wasted magnetic energy and requires an inordinately strong magnet to ensure reasonable sensitivity. To gain the necessary magnetic flux levels, Doug specified the very first use of neodymium magnets for low frequency transducers. Neodymium magnets have approximately 10 times the magnetic energy by weight as ferrite magnets. Their use resulted in a relatively compact driver that was exceptionally free from distortion, yet had high sensitivity and high output.

The 1400Nd driver, and subsequent K2 systems that employed it, were a stunning success. However, Doug was not completely satisfied. Classic underhung designs have a unique frequency response anomaly that is due to the coil topology. It regards eddy currents set up by the moving coil in the gap. These currents act as the secondary in a transformer to effectively short out the coil circuit leading to a loss in voltage drive. The net result is a “swayback” response curve through the midband with about a 2db drop in output. While this can be dealt with in network compensation, the purist in Doug wanted that energy back. Addressing this would be the starting point for the 1500AL design.

Design work for the K2-S9800 and its transducers began in 1999. The focal point of this system was to be an Alnico magnet woofer with an underhung coil. Alnico had been the magnetic material of choice for JBL from its very inception until the late 1970’s. In 1978, a civil war in Zaire resulted in the temporary embargo of the commercial supply of cobalt that was a primary ingredient in Alnico. Over a one year period, virtually every loudspeaker manufacturer was forced to switch to more readily available ferrite magnets.

Initially, this magnetic material presented problems compared to Alnico. It was less powerful by weight, requiring much more magnetic material than an equivalent Alnico. It was more susceptible to flux modulation caused by voice coil currents and more susceptible to flux loss due to heating. None of these constraints were absolute. Through innovative engineering (eg. SFG, VGC and SVG motors), JBL was able to develop ferrite magnet drivers that exceeded the performance of the previous Alnico versions.

Nonetheless, the ferrite developments led to an interesting question. What would happen if the same level of innovation applied to ferrite designs were applied to Alnico motors? As described above, Alnico starts off with a number of intrinsic advantages compared to other magnetic materials. By leveraging these advantages, it should be possible to achieve new levels of accuracy.

This became the design goal for the 1500AL. The intent was to end up with a bass driver with the lowest distortion possible while retaining the efficiency and dynamic response that were the hallmarks of JBL. However, there was one major disadvantage in Alnico loudspeakers that would have to be addressed – the susceptibility to permanent demagnetization due to overpowering.

This phenomenon is a result of variability in strength of the permanent magnetic field caused by interference from the voice coil’s electromagnetic field. This is referred to as flux modulation and is a leading cause of distortion in any dynamic loudspeaker. The electromagnetic field generated in the coil pushes against the global magnetic field set up by the permanent magnet and return circuit, causing it to “bend”. Under normal operating conditions, Alnico magnets actually resist this bending better than most other magnet materials. However, should this shift become large enough, it will exceed the coercivity of Alnico and cause it to partially demagnetize.

JBL had done extensive work in stabilizing flux modulation during the conversion to ferrite magnet motors. Ferrite is much more susceptible to flux modulation than Alnico. The coercivity is much higher so that extreme modulation will not result in demagnetization. However, under normal operating conditions, this flux modulation will manifest itself as second order harmonic distortion. By installing a copper shorting ring around the base of the pole piece, JBL engineers were able to reduce flux modulation, and therefore distortion levels in ferrite motors, to very low levels.

Doug Button realized that this same technology could be extended to control flux modulation to such a degree that the coercivity in an Alnico magnet would never be exceeded. He specified a huge copper shorting ring that would buck any changes in the global field that was induced by the voice coil signal. The result was that the major drawback of using Alnico for a loudspeaker magnet had been completely eliminated.

Nonetheless, Doug was not done in setting the design parameters for the 1500AL. There remained the previously identified issue of midband loss in output and a more subtle form of flux modulation that was not addressed with the large shorting ring. Doug would devise an ingenious solution that would resolve both of these issues – a lamination of copper and steel rings applied to the outside diameter of the voice coil gap.

Before detailing this solution, it is worthwhile understanding the phenomenon of “local” flux modulation. The variability in the overall strength of the permanent magnetic field is referred to as “global” flux modulation and this was controlled through a massive shorting ring. However local variance in the flux field was determined to exist in the voice coil gap, independent of variance in the global field. It was particularly an issue for an underhung design like the 1500AL which had an inordinately deep gap. The AC field generated by the voice coil would cause variance in the gap strength from top to bottom that dynamically resulted in a teeter tottering effect. Doug realized that another copper shorting ring placed in the gap would address this phenomenon. However, it came to him as an inspiration, that by interspersing steel coils in between a series of copper coils, he could break up the eddy currents that were causing the midband loss. Thus, came the specification for a series of laminated coils of alternating copper and steel construction that would be applied to the outside diameter of the coil gap.

With this final attribute, the conceptual design for the 1500AL was set. However, there was now the formidable task of developing the concept into a production driver. Responsibility for this would fall upon Jerry Moro, Senior Transducer Engineer for JBL Consumer Products. Jerry recognized that for the dynamic range requirement of modern digital sources, the driver would have to accommodate large excursions. A large coil would be required, but to maintain the underhung topology, there would need to be a gap depth of unprecedented proportions. Ultimately, a 0.8” long coil would be suspended in a 1.5” deep gap. This would accommodate 1” of peak to peak excursion. The magnetic energy requirements to provide a reasonable flux density in such a deep gap was enormous. It resulted in an Alnico magnet of massive proportions. An Alnico slug weighing over 5lbs became the core of the motor structure. The overall structure would weigh over 30lbs.

The large excursion requirements presented unique suspension demands. Normally, the surround and spider are designed to act together to provide restoring force and damping for the cone movement. However, with these large excursions, the different construction of the surround and spider would result in non symmetric response to deflections and therefore distortion. Jerry addressed this by designing a mirror imaged pair of spiders that acted symmetrically and thus allowed the surround to be optimized for linearity. Mirror imaging the spiders resulted in any distortion components being cancelled out.

A major focus of Jerry’s design for the 1500AL was to minimize power compression. Power compression regards a reduction in output as power levels increase. It is the biggest factor in restricting dynamic response. Therefore, mitigating it to the maximum degree became a design objective. Heat is by far the major culprit behind dynamic compression. It causes energy losses in the permanent magnetic field and impedance changes in the coil that conspire to reduce output as heat builds up. Jerry designed a series of measures to dissipate heat.

First, the pole piece and magnet have three channels embedded along their outer circumference. Air trapped behind the dustcap is forced past the coil and out these channels to convectively cool the coil. Next, an aluminum motor cap completely surrounds the magnetic return structure. A series of ribs draws heat away from the iron pot to the cap which acts as a large heat sink. Finally, there is an air gap between the cap and the pot structure that is vented in the rear. The motion of the spiders pumps air into this gap to provide further convective cooling.

The net result is a woofer that arguably has lower levels of power compression than any other loudspeaker of its size. It can sustain maximum output levels of 118db with minimal distortion. Testing at a 110db output level revealed midband distortion to be down 50db, or around 0.3%. In summary, the 1500AL sets an unprecedented standard for accuracy, dynamic response and freedom from distortion

[此贴子已经被作者于2009-04-01 10:30:38编辑过]

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  发帖心情 Post By:2009-4-2 16:06:04 [显示全部帖子]

以下是引用阿龙-翟在2009-04-01 16:11:23的发言:
以下是引用jordanlin在2009-04-01 09:46:59的发言:

其实这款1500AL喇叭,外观没有特色,音色怎么样,我也不知道。我只是惊讶它的那个失真,在110 dB是只有0.03%。太有点不可思议了。
你所说的音色,外观,材料一样,我都不在乎。也许我和你强调的重点不一样。我见过太多防人家的喇叭,比如Seas,scan,BC等等,大多数外观一样,但都与人家原装的在性能音色方面差别较大。唯有USHER防的SCAN的喇叭好一点,几乎可以以假乱真。但那是因为,USHER请了一个在SCAN做了十几年的工程师的结果呀。
如果国内能做出1500AL一样性能的喇叭(我强调不是指外观,外观并不重要),那真令人高兴。

看来我的意思你没明白,我说的和从JBL出的原装是划等号的,已经就不是所谓的COPY了
如果你在他的基础上做改良(前提条件:你的综合实力不低于原来设计团队,这个可以是一个人也可以是个团队),你觉得结果会怎样???
我也见过一些顶尖的外籍喇叭工程师,没有一般人想象的高山仰止不能望其项背的程度
对喇叭(音箱)来说我强调的就是音色效果

另外对于110db0.03%的失真应是一个官样文化和表面文章的体现,而真正的游戏规则没人会告诉你

对这款音箱,我最看重的是它的失真,这也是JBL到处宣扬的一个卖点。当然我们都知道在营销是这些数据回有夸大。但不知阿龙-翟 有无这一参数的最准确的资料?第二点,它的结构搞得那么复杂,也是一个嚎头?第三点,它所说的铝钴镍的销磁难题在我们看来不过是一个笑话。

阿龙-翟   能否请你就技术层面较祥细的解剖一下这只喇叭。他在那些方面有独创性?那些方面是败笔? 或者整只喇叭就技术方面不直一提?

如能祥细解剖这只喇叭,这对国内的工程师来讲,应该是有好处的。大家都会欢迎你。 谢谢。




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  发帖心情 Post By:2009-4-18 13:32:06 [显示全部帖子]

 一个小错误,JBL宣布的数据是在110 dB是只有0.3%,而不是0.03%

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  发帖心情 Post By:2009-4-18 13:32:58 [显示全部帖子]

这是1500AL 的T/S参数:

Fs = 27.3 hz
Qts = 0.27
Qes = 0.28
Qms = 12.84
Vas = 264.55 l
Sd = 880 sq cm
Re = 5.4 ohms
Mms = 139.9g
Bl = 21.64 T*m
Spl = 94.7 dB.

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