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主题:喇叭的相位失真问题

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喇叭的相位失真问题  发帖心情 Post By:2006-2-7 14:38:45 [只看该作者]

请问各位前辈和大侠 用LMS或CLIO 可以测出喇叭的相位失真吗?

用LMS测喇叭单体阻抗的时候 会产生一条相位曲线 但喇叭的相位失真又是什么 又如何测试得出呢?喇叭的相位失真和频率响应有关吗?望各位不吝指教!



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  发帖心情 Post By:2006-2-7 15:32:36 [只看该作者]

lms 的相位曲线是最小相位 我认为喇叭的相位曲线就是相位失真曲线,如果没有失真的话,香味曲线应该是一条直线

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  发帖心情 Post By:2006-2-7 16:07:14 [只看该作者]

扬声器的相位曲线和相位失真是两回事不要混为一谈,相位失真可以从相位曲线和阻抗曲线上反映出来而且扬声器的相位失真主要出现在频频率相对较高的中高频段.而相位曲线呢它本身就是扬声器应该有的一种特性


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  发帖心情 Post By:2006-2-7 17:05:10 [只看该作者]

请解释一下相位失真的定义

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  发帖心情 Post By:2006-2-7 17:19:30 [只看该作者]

这个还不明白吗?相位失真嘛就是反映扬声器相位特性发生畸变程度的一个数值

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  发帖心情 Post By:2006-2-7 17:21:12 [只看该作者]

发生畸变的参考相位是什么?

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  发帖心情 Post By:2006-2-7 17:46:31 [只看该作者]

电信号通过喇叭单元后,电相位与声相位发生了变化而形成的失真

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  发帖心情 Post By:2006-2-7 23:02:58 [只看该作者]

以下是引用me在2006-02-07 17:46:31的发言:
电信号通过喇叭单元后,电相位与声相位发生了变化而形成的失真

应该是指信号经系统后产生的相位差随频率发生变化(不是保持恒定状态),也就是系统相频响应函数对频率的二次导数非零,二次导数为零则成为线性相位系统,信号经系统后每个频率成分都有相同的延时。

以上是大致意思,非书面语言!



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  发帖心情 Post By:2006-2-8 8:21:01 [只看该作者]

谢谢各位的热情指教 但好象没有人正面回答我的疑问啊 我对相位失真的定义有所了解 我的问题是所谓的相位失真就是通过那条相位曲线看出的吗?如果是 那相位失真具体的指标又如何表达呢?



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  发帖心情 Post By:2006-2-8 17:26:52 [只看该作者]

理论上相位失真的指标以最大相位与最小相位之差来表示的


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  发帖心情 Post By:2006-2-8 20:21:18 [只看该作者]

以下是引用eagles在2006-02-07 14:38:45的发言:

请问各位前辈和大侠 用LMS或CLIO 可以测出喇叭的相位失真吗?

用LMS测喇叭单体阻抗的时候 会产生一条相位曲线 但喇叭的相位失真又是什么 又如何测试得出呢?喇叭的相位失真和频率响应有关吗?望各位不吝指教!

LMS连谐波失真都不能测,何况相位失真,测阻抗测出来的是阻抗的相位频率响应情况(通常所说的阻抗曲线实际上阻抗频率响应的模值),这条曲线和通常所说的扬声器相位是两个概念!

同样的通常所说的扬声器的频率响应和相位响应其实就是扬声器声压频率响应的模值和相位部分,相位和模值无必然的关系!


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  发帖心情 Post By:2006-2-8 20:55:00 [只看该作者]

以下是引用liyy在2006-02-08 20:21:18的发言:

LMS连谐波失真都不能测,何况相位失真,测阻抗测出来的是阻抗的相位频率响应情况(通常所说的阻抗曲线实际上阻抗频率响应的模值),这条曲线和通常所说的扬声器相位是两个概念!

同样的通常所说的扬声器的频率响应和相位响应其实就是扬声器,相位和模值无必然的关系!

LMS是不能测试真实声相位,但对于扬声器单元来说,通常是最小相位系统,最小相位系统的声压频率响应的模值和相位部分是一一对应的,有必然联系的。



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  发帖心情 Post By:2006-2-8 20:59:12 [只看该作者]

以下是引用imxp在2006-02-08 20:55:00的发言:

LMS是不能测试真实声相位,但对于扬声器单元来说,通常是最小相位系统,最小相位系统的声压频率响应的模值和相位部分是一一对应的,有必然联系的。

另:对于最小相位系统来说,在某一处测量到的真实的声相位就是其最小相位特性加上测量系统(包括MIC距离)引起的恒延时。

对于这个问题,南大的潘立超先生有几篇文章谈过。

[此贴子已经被作者于2006-02-08 21:08:36编辑过]


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  发帖心情 Post By:2006-2-8 21:44:44 [只看该作者]

以下是引用imxp在2006-02-08 20:55:00的发言:

LMS是不能测试真实声相位,但对于扬声器单元来说,通常是最小相位系统,最小相位系统的声压频率响应的模值和相位部分是一一对应的,有必然联系的。

如何对应?难道对应不同相位有不同模值?

扬声器单元是最小相位系统吗?不同的Q其群延时特性是不同的,只有在Q=0.577时才有平坦的群延特性,其他情况下,其群延特性是不平坦的,也就是说相频响应不是线性,如何能称为最小相位系统呢?


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  发帖心情 Post By:2006-2-8 23:56:02 [只看该作者]

以下是引用liyy在2006-02-08 21:44:44的发言:

如何对应?难道对应不同相位有不同模值?

扬声器单元是最小相位系统吗?不同的Q其群延时特性是不同的,只有在Q=0.577时才有平坦的群延特性,其他情况下,其群延特性是不平坦的,也就是说相频响应不是线性,如何能称为最小相位系统呢?

讨论这个问题,首先要明确的是“最小相位系统”这个名称,这个名称的使用并不代表说相位是一条直线(或加上恒延时造成的)的系统就是最小相位系统。而是*****,解释实在太坳口,有时间我直接贴上来。

“对应”的意思就是有怎么样变化的幅频响应,就对应了怎么样的相频响应。对于最小相位系统来说是对应的。



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  发帖心情 Post By:2006-2-9 5:19:14 [只看该作者]

要把这个问题搞清楚,先不管扬声器,就要学一学系统和信号的基本理论.

我在这儿先把美国RANE公司AUDIO资料的名词解释引用几段.

等我方便之时,再长篇引用.

linear distortion: Any change to the amplitude or phase of the incoming signal frequency components. Contrast with nonlinear distortion.

linear phase response: Any system which accurately preserves phase relationships between frequencies, i.e., that exhibits pure delay. See group delay.

linear system or linear device: A system or device that meets two criteria: 1) proportionality -- the output smoothly follows the input; 2) additivity -- if input x results in output U and input y results in output V, then input x+y must result in output U+V. This means the system or device is predictably and its cause and effect relationship is proportional. Contrast: nonlinear.

phase: Audio signals are complex AC (alternating current) periodic phenomena expressed mathematically as phasors, or vectors. Phase refers to a particular value of t (time) for any periodic function, i.e. it is the relationship between a reference point and the fractional part of the period through which the signal has advanced relative to an arbitrary origin. [The origin is usually taken at the last previous passage through zero from the negative to the positive direction -- IEEE.] See Georgia State University's great website HyperPhysics for more detail.

phase linear: 1. Chiefly a European phrase meaning "linear phase." Any system which accurately preserves phase relationships between frequencies, i.e., that exhibits pure delay. See group delay. 2. Consumer hi-fi company where the Rane owners worked before starting Rane Corporation. See Phase Linear History/Repair.



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  发帖心情 Post By:2006-2-9 5:25:15 [只看该作者]

以上英文资料来自

http://www.rane.com/digi-dic.html


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  发帖心情 Post By:2006-2-9 5:37:08 [只看该作者]

再引用一段:来自

http://www.brentworth.com/phasedistortion.htm

Phase Distortion and the Conventional Loudspeaker

A great many problems in music reproductions can be traced directly to a basic flaw which appears as a necessary characteristic of the conventional loudspeaker - Phase Distortion. Of all the speaker ailments, phase distortion is the most critical, the hardest to cure, and probably the least understood by both stereo enthusiasts, and the average consumer alike.

Using easy-to-understand models, and non-technical terms, this pamphlet will enable you to understand phase distortion and the critical role it plays in the reproduction of music through loudspeakers.

To understand phase distortion, one must first understand the meaning of the words Frequency and Cycles. The concept is easily grasped if we form a mental picture of a person sitting at the edge of a quiet pond, making small waves by striking the water with his hand.

The waves, both large and small, depending on the force exerted, travel across the pond at the same speed, so that the distance from crest to crest remains unchanged once they are set in motion. This crest-to-crest (or trough-to-trough) distance is called wavelength and can be changed by striking the water at a faster or slower rate.

Let us assume that another person is sitting on the other side of the pond counting the number of complete waves (one crest to the next) as they pass a given point in a certain length of time. For example, if the wavelength is long, then not many waves will pass the point in, let’s say, a minute. If the wavelength is short, then a large number of waves will be counted. In science a complete wave is called a Cycle, and the standard length of time is the second, which would give us Cycles for every one second, or, simply stated, Cycles per second. The number of cycles per second is referred to as Frequency.

Frequencies with a long wavelength we hear as low tones, those with a short wavelength, as high tones. We do not however, hear all tones. The average human may hear frequencies that range from about 30 cycles/second to 16,000 cycles/second. Perhaps you have had experience with a silent dog whistle. Silent that is, for humans, but not for dogs, whose hearing is attuned to much higher frequencies.

When a musical instrument generates a tone, the tone is composed of the fundamental note and whole family of harmonics. As an example, if a bass note is struck on a piano, a fundamental frequency of 73.42 cycles is produced, along with harmonics or overtones that may range up to 7,000 cycles, all of which are radiating from the same impact point on the string, at the same instant of time.

The interweaving or wave pattern of this family of vibrations creates the tone quality or Timbre of the instrument. It is, in fact, the reason why each guitar, even though made by the same company, has its own unique sound. However, only a single point source can reproduce this slight difference.

To visualize why a single point source is important, picture a large stone and small stone dropped into a pond at the same time and in the same place. The subsequent pattern of large and small waves emanating from this common origin can be directly related to instrument timbre. We say that the waves are in-phase.

On the other hand, if the two stones are dropped at the same time but at different points in the pond, the intermixing of these waves (occurring somewhere in the middle) merely resembles our original example; they do not copy it. They are out-of-phase.

It should seem apparent that in order to reproduce accurately the music on a record and have it in-phase, we need a single source, capable of reacting to all frequencies. In other words, we have to drop our stones at the same time, in the same spot.

Now, a vibrating diaphragm of any size can produce low frequency tones. For example, the diaphragm in a microphone is 1 inch or less while the usual headphone diaphragm is 1/2 to 2 inches. Cones (or drivers) of this size, while large enough to create bass in your ear canal, are too small to move enough air to create bass in a room.

In a conventional speaker the bass is produced by using large massive drivers called woofers. However, their very mass makes them sluggish and slow and the problem then becomes one of producing the high frequencies. This is solved by using a small driver (or a series of smaller drivers) called a tweeter. Typically, mid-range drivers are also used for those frequencies which fall between.

This multiple driver system requires an electronic circuit called a crossover to be inserted in the system to direct the appropriate signals to the various drive units. The end result is that although the conventional loudspeaker produces all frequencies, it is using many sources of propagation, which causes the music to be out of phase and time alignment with the subsequent loss of instrument timbre.

Unfortunately, the loss of instrument timbre is only one of the unpleasant side effects of phase distortion. Another is loss of clarity. Music from the conventional loudspeaker most often seems to be heavy, muffled, and coming from the inside of the speaker box. The listener may feel as if he was listening to a performance through a thick blanket. This inevitably leads to a problem in imaging and presence, as they are known in the audio business.

Imaging is the mental picture one should get of the performers and their stage position. Presence refers to how much a speaker sounds out-of-the-box-and-into-the-room. The more presence a speaker has, the easier imaging becomes.

To understand the final and most damaging side effect of phase distortion, we must return to our pond. This time, let us assume that there is one person on either side of the pond, and that both are making identical size waves. As the waves meet in the middle, the water at any given time will be both choppy and calm in the same area.

When the crests of two identical waves meet their effects become additive and the resulting wave crest is twice as high as either of the originals. For example, the crests of two 2-inch waves would join to form a four-inch wave. The same result occurs at the meeting of two troughs. These cases are referred to as constructive interference.

Logically then, if a 2 inch crest meets a 2 inch trough, their effects are cancelled and the water is smooth. This is termed destructive interference. By the same token, we would expect to find intermediate size waves in areas where the interference was neither completely destructive nor completely constructive.

With this in mind, it is easy to understand how in a conventional speaker with many sources of propagation, some frequencies may be totally or partially cancelled causing a mute, or, in the extreme case, complete absence of musical instruments.

In theory then it would seem reasonable to build a speaker that uses a single source for all the frequencies thereby eliminating the need for woofers, tweeters, crossovers and the attendant problems of phase distortion, time alignment, clarity, sluggishness, etc.

At BSL, this was accomplished with our proprietary Dynamic Loading System (DLS) whereby a single driver is used, and the cabinet becomes the generator of bass frequencies in the same way that the body of the bass violin creates a large amount of bass from so small an object as a vibrating string.

A further advantage of this system lies in the quickness of the bass response since the woofer in this case is small (6.25 in.) and easily controlled by the amplifier.

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  发帖心情 Post By:2006-2-9 9:30:24 [只看该作者]

好像对于单体没有相位失真这个定义

信号经过喇叭后发生相位漂移(当然这是频率的函数),理想的状态如初哥大虾所说

另外,了解其相位漂移应该根据幅频响应的测试结果,而不是阻抗响应


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  发帖心情 Post By:2006-2-18 23:54:16 [只看该作者]

IMXP兄说的是对的!最小相位系统定义如下:


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